Come on, share the trails. Horses, walkers,runners, Yes, Yes even people on bikes! Share and share alike. Come on!

Was this supposed to be funny, or was this an actual attempt at serious writing?
I thought professional mediators were supposed to bring differing groups together. This article does the opposite.

What about licensing and testing equestrians to ensure they can appropriately control their huge animals before allowing them out in public? And then require the riders to dismount and clean the horse crap off the trail the way dog owners are required to. Why should I have to ride through or step in your pet's crap?
The demographics are changing, and the large swath of the middle class that are mountain bike owners often purposely moved to Marin to be near trails, and are finally getting to the point where they realize that their taxes are being spent to prevent them from accessing the trails they pay to purchase the land for and maintain.
The equestrian elite is upset that their exclusive use of public property is threatened, as their well-funded lobby has been able to dominate the discussion for decades.
Hikers do have a legitimate beef with the small segment of the mountain bike community that has poor trail etiquette, but that is an education issue, and expanded access to a greater amount of legal trails would only serve to mitigate that issue as bikers are dispersed over larger areas instead of confined to just a few (count 'em: 3) park areas. Bikes should yield. Period. Anyone who doesn't is an asshole, so feel free to call them out.
However, the above 'satire' is juvenile, unhelpful, and generally just a load of horse manure.

I think it's for comedic purposes, Alejandro.

Fire Road Bikes, nee mountain bikes bikes should be restricted to fire roads only. they should be forced to license and register them. Bikers want everything, yet they're unwilling to pay for anything. Let them pay bikes taxes and permit fees and trail fees. As it is they are (mostly) arrogant hot-doggers with little regard for other people. As to the person who said "share": sometimes "sharing" means doing without if your activity destroys anthers enjoyment.

If mountain bikers are so unwilling to pay for anything or to maintain the trails that they ride, how do you explain Tamarancho? It's pretty sad that anyone buys the argument that equestrian use of trails is 'natural' and that bicycle use of those same trails is destructive. Any arguments that a thousand pound animal with sharp hoofs causes less trail damage than a 30 lb bicycle will be laughed out of the court of public opinion. Hikers certainly have a point about being surprised by cyclists, but this could be mitigated by a fair use policy. Sharing would be best, but in the super entitled world of the landed gentry equestrian or the Sierra club hikers, this doesn't seem likely. Yes, we ride bikes on trails. No, we're not going away and we won't be denied access to the trails that we all own collectively for frivolous and passe reasons.

I would argue that there are far more mountain bikers living in and paying taxes to maintain the trails in Marin than there are horse owners. By that logic alone bikers should have more access. Bikers DO pay trail fees.
Also, this article caused me to re-up to MCBC, and I specifically mentioned it was because of their new Trail Access prioritizing. We are not 'co-opting' MCBC: We ARE MCBC.

People who ride bikes have the same access to trails as those who ride horses or hike. They are welcome, just not their bikes. It's really simple. So the nonsense statement about their demographic outrage is ridiculous. They are not deprived, they would only have you think so. This a public safety and environmental quality argument and should stay in that arena. Also, bikes are horrific at causing serious erosion problems. The trail surface is destroyed when they run the steep single tracks, and they certainly erode the tranquility and peace of mind of other trail users. Horses are not allowed on sensitive trails either, but you rarely see equestrians act as scofflaws. Bikes should be registered to help with the enormous scofflaw problem, make bike riders accountable and liable for problems that injure other trail users or cause damage to our public lands.

I dunno - I get that this was supposed to be humorous, but it didn't really sit well with me. We've come to accept really mean things and jokes said about bikers, but if you said something like "equestrians should stop wearing those silly pants, that would make everything better" that would be pretty ridiculous. And, I've only been mountain biking one time, but I run on the trails multiple times a week and I've never really had a problem with the mountain bikers. Sometimes it can be annoying when there's so many of them at China Camp, but no more annoying than when there's so many hikers that won't move over and walk three abreast. But, it's just life - you share, you get over it.

This is an insulting little editorial by an author whom obviously is biased and agenda driven against mountain bikers, while trying to ploy a comedic openness.

Share, yes you walk the trail on monday, they bike the trail on tuesday, you walk on wednesday, and so on! No body has to do with out. There are plenty of trails to use and alternate with. Dont be selfish share the enjojment of the hills. This is done all over the country on thousands of trails. Also just like the Highway if someone is caught speeding, they get a ticket! Come on lets let EVERYBODY enjoy the trails.

Boundaries for bikers are essential to help ensure quiet enjoyment of our commons. Bikes on single track trails introduce significant noise and nervousness into wilderness areas, and are disturbing for both hiker and wildlife. Saying "Hey, c'mon, let's share!" is veiling the truth - you want it all just because you want it all.

The truth is often spoken in jest. And it's easy to detect the writers truths. They say mediators are to be neutral. I'm embarrassed for this writer. I've always been a proponent of even/odd days or alternating days for bikes and hikers on MMWD watershed trails. Maybe some day. And horse hoofs have caused the most egregious trail damage I've seen. It comes with territory with 1000 lb. animals.

This article is offensive and ignorant on many fronts. It is not humorous in the slightest. I'm not even sure where to begin.

Categorizing people who ride mountain bikes as "thrill-seeking" adrenaline junkies is absurd. People who ride mountain bikes are just people who like to get outside like anyone else. This is a human-powered, non-polluting, not very noisy, carbon-neutral, healthy activity. While the author wants to portray mountain bikers as some sort of Mountain Dew fueled eco-terrorist on par with a two stroke motorcycle, mountain bikers come from all walks of life, all ages, and all socioeconomic backgrounds. It may be hard to imagine, but many (if not most) mountain bikers also walk, hike, run, drive, and pay their taxes too.

In other areas of the country, 90% of singletrack trails are multi-use without major conflicts (think Tahoe, or Colorado, or Utah).

Legal mountain bike trails are increasing because mountain biking is increasing. Mountain bikes make up an increasingly large demographic of outdoor trail use, and need to be incorporated into recreation areas (including singletrack). Banning mountain bikes from 90% of singletrack just results in illegal trails being built and people riding singletrack ilegally. (Lessons that can all be learned from prohibition). More trails and access for mountain bikes are needed, because our recreation areas need to reflect real usage demographics- for human-powered non-polluting activities.

Join IMBA and MCBC: tell them Dotty LeMeiux sent you.
The tide is turning here: we might not want 'it all', but we are sure as hell sick and tired of having TWO LEGAL TRAILS (one of which is private and pay per use) in a county that has literally hundreds of miles of single track.

Man, I wish that both sides of this messy sprawl would put as much energy into the rest of the world. This post has gotten more energy and attention than things such as, ending wars, funding education and healthcare, or changing our overly entitled and wastefully consumptive lifestyles. We are ALL fool of hot air and righteous certaintude and so what, can we get along or create a livable future? Not likely, the way things look, and time will tell. Black and white just turns to mud after a while, and what is important anyway? Horse crap and bike crap, it is all just compost eventually?

Sierra, your argument is that everything is turning to crap, so let's just turn a little more into crap? What's the difference? Wildlife and wilderness are values that I care deeply about, and I believe each of us has a duty to protect what's left. If we churn everything that is wild into degraded human use, because we can, because we want to, what will be left? That is at the heart of a consumptive attitude.

We live in extended community with each other and with wildlife. Single track trails are a part of Marin wilderness, a gentle access to the wilds, and should stay that way.

Gina - no one is advocating that mountain bikes be allowed on all of the single track trails in Marin. As a hiker, you probably know that there are hundreds of miles of single track trails in Marin and that about 70% of them are truly unsuitable for biking. No one in their right mind would advocate opening the Cataracts trail to bikes, for instance. It's about sharing some..

The reason that China Camp has so much bike traffic is because it's literally the only system in Marin containing single track that is freely available to bikes. I won't go into the many reasons why cyclists enjoy riding singletrack - just imagine if there were elves in the forest and they demanded that we humans could only hike on the fire roads, so as to preserve the elves' access to their natural habitat. How would that make you feel? I bet you'd justify your decision to hike those singletrack trails as well. There's no use in wishing the problem away - mountain biking and mountain bikers are overwhelmingly law abiding and respectful, but you can deny our basic rights to our use of the commons for only so long..

The places where you like to hike in Marin are *not* wilderness. They are shared recreational areas. Wilderness exists in places where there are no trails and no hikers, equestrians or cyclists and I support the expansion of those places as well, but for our RECREATIONAL lands we all have to share..

This was mean spirited. The "come on, can't you take a joke?" doesn't work here because it's not a joke. I mountain bike, I slow down whenever I see people, stop when I see a horse and generally try to be respectful. I think most people are like me. Then there's the occasional jerk, often times a young person who hasn't honed his/her manners quite yet, who flies by without a warning or apology. Don't lump us all together. Just because you got there first doesn't mean you are entitled to sole ownership forever.

Declaring that Marin wild lands are all about human recreational use and how to divide up the spoils is frustrating. The plants and animals of whole ecosystems live here and the soundscapes that support them. Life here is on another, slower speed, and should be protected.

Pushing for more mountain bike trails rather than urban bike connectivity is, to me, a step in the wrong direction, but a half-jesting rant about it won't do. It never does.

Basic tennent: any user of any trail, paved or unpaved, urban or rural, single track or fire road, needs to respect the trail and the other potential users of that trail. If someone rides, hikes, or horseback rides unsafely and puts others at risk of injury, there should be a punishment so as to avoid future problems. Regarding noise...well, I believe in keeping things peaceful and even hikers (as I tell my own family on the trail) should respect noise levels as well. I could easily say that the extreme noise from cars on the street really inteferes with my "peace" as I am bike commuting...but I won't say that (darn..too late, I already did). :)

I would LOVE to carry a sleeping dart and pop the aggressive, loud, obnoxious riders as they scream by, both physically and orally, Nothing would please me more than enforcement, to see them keel over and plop into a gentle slumber. But who's going to do enforcement? should I start carrying my tipped darts?

I love the 'debate' on here, summarized below:
Mountain Bikers: Can't we all just share the trails and appreciate the outdoors together.
Hikers, et. al : Can't we just kill or maim Bikers to protect my completely made up right to silence in the woods?

Actually, Jeffery, this is a debate about environmental health and public safety. Care to join the discussion?

I'm an occasional hiker with three children - teenage and down - and can't tell you how many times we've heard "ON YOUR LEFT" as someone tears down the hill, moving at a speed completely incommensurate with the speed we're moving. Given that a little kid barely knows left from right, likewise myself, you'd think a slow-down and gentle ride-by would be appropriate, BUT NO!!!! Half the time we just jump in some direction or other, but I guess that's a laugh for bikers and Darwinism at work in the world you inhabit. This happens over and over. And I won't even mention the walks near the house with riders running stop signs. How do I teach my children to follow the law ans be safe on a bike at a stop when they continually see adults blow through stop signs. The bikers attitude is that we are a law unto ourselves, and screw the rest of you. Witness the comment by "Life in the Bubble," above," who basically says, "there's lots of us and more coming all the time, so get used to it!" Yeah, that's a friendly, let's work together attitude. Even in words, most of the biker comments here are arrogant and dismissive. Must be something in the DNA seeking adrenaline, but it doesn't work in a public forum or in a public recreational space.

Most any group of 2 or more folks IS noisy folks, or even a group of one on a damn cell phone. Personally I don't like listening to bikers, hikers, extra terrestrials (well perhaps that would be interesting) or any group jabbering, and generally pretty loudly, about their relationships, investments, cars, or whatevers, and whatchysa gonna do, most folks are totally oblivious to the fact that anyone within 1/8 mile can hear every word......
This column of words is about whatever folks assume it is about. It's a wonder people can understand or communicate at all, as we are all clouded by our beliefs, ear wax, misunderstandings, and various intents.

As for rolling stop signs on a bike, there are rules and laws, and there are rules and laws, and regardless of the "laws" people should go when it is their turn and/or with the flow, regardless of bureaucracy. In other words, it comes down to beliefs, ethics, and morals, and trying to work it out with others who believe differently.

Humans tend to start shooting at each other before being willing to compromise, share, or accept other folks with the misfortune to have arrived somewhere at a later date.... Think about that one......
Not all bikers, hikers, or horsers, are jerks, and there are certainly some in all groups.
Can we accept, understand, educate, and value each others viewpoints and work something out, or not?

So far, humans have done a piss poor job of getting along or agreeing on much of anything.
We shall see, eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bQF1L1Ju7M

You succeeded. See all the comments? Now that is communication.

I found the article openly hostile, not very funny, and encouraging an us vs. them attitude that will make things worse, not better. Dotty LeMieux would do better to apply some of those mediator skills here (assuming she has them) instead of fanning the flames with this thinly-disguised "humor" piece.

This is a very emotional issue with every user group wanting access to trails. I am sure even dirt bikers would love to ride all over Marin County trails, something most people can agree is not appropriate. But lets look at some facts:

1. Mtn. bikers never sought permission to ride Mt. Tam and Marin Co. trails years ago. They just started doing it. Results have been dismal, with many user conflicts, resource damage, illegal riding and illegal trails made costing the county tens of thousands to repair.
Even key Marin bike advocates have been caught and fined for building illegal trails

2. Marin Bike Council sued Dept. of Interior to fed. court in 1996 for equal access to trails (Babbit vs. Marin) and lost, also lost in fed. court of appeals. Ruling is that land managers have right to determine who uses trails based on user conflicts, safety and resource protection

3. Compatable use. Hikers and horseback riders are a much slower user group, generally 3-10 MPH. Mtn bikers typically go much faster, many with goals to zip downhill fast, break speed records and have a rip roaring ride. This places other user groups in danger...example of elderly woman hit and killed in Washington State last year. Safety comes first. Like dirt bikes, modern Mtn bikes are engineered to go fast over rough terrain, not a suitable mix in narrow singletrack trails with hikers and horses.

4. Tahoe as an example? Google illegal bike trail building...a huge problem

It's typical for Mountain bikers to justify their illegal trail building by claiming they -have- to do this becuase there are not enough trails....this is akin to me claiming I have to rob a bank becuase I don't have enough money. Fre more thoughts and facts:

China camp is again, a dismal example of failure of multi use areas...becuase the Mtn Bikers have so taken over the park they have driven out the hikers and equestrians due to the safety issues....and lets not forget illegal trails and damage there.

"recreational" areas often cannot be suitable for every user. Simple fact.

Bolinas Ridge trail is a great place for multi-use. Wide tracks, open space with good visibility and no steep dropoffs. A hiker or horseback rider can see bikers coming as a distance and get off the trail if they wish.

Single track is NOT SAFE! the speed of the bikers is the issue. This is why most singletrack at Pt. Reyes is no bikes.

San Mateo county does not allow bikes on hiking and riding trails. They put SAFETY at the forefront, with many workshops and studies to support this. Other San Mateo county non-county administered parks do allow mountain bikes, with the ensuing problems such as illegal night riding, speeding and illegal trails (Corte Madera)

Sorry folks, this has not been a responsible nor accountable user group with entitlement attitude and an apparent pact to refuse to admit their group every causes stress, danger or risk to other users.

It's typical for Mountain bikers to justify their illegal trail building by claiming they -have- to do this becuase there are not enough trails....this is akin to me claiming I have to rob a bank becuase I don't have enough money. Fre more thoughts and facts:

China camp is again, a dismal example of failure of multi use areas...becuase the Mtn Bikers have so taken over the park they have driven out the hikers and equestrians due to the safety issues....and lets not forget illegal trails and damage there.

"recreational" areas often cannot be suitable for every user. Simple fact.

Bolinas Ridge trail is a great place for multi-use. Wide tracks, open space with good visibility and no steep dropoffs. A hiker or horseback rider can see bikers coming as a distance and get off the trail if they wish.

Single track is NOT SAFE! the speed of the bikers is the issue. This is why most singletrack at Pt. Reyes is no bikes.

San Mateo county does not allow bikes on hiking and riding trails. They put SAFETY at the forefront, with many workshops and studies to support this. Other San Mateo county non-county administered parks do allow mountain bikes, with the ensuing problems such as illegal night riding, speeding and illegal trails (Corte Madera)

Sorry folks, this has not been a responsible nor accountable user group with entitlement attitude and an apparent pact to refuse to admit their group every causes stress, danger or risk to other users.

You might want to google some of the illegal trails and problems in the Boulder area...many citizen groups are forming to try to protect the open space......

As far as Tahoe Basin, "Bikers Blaze Illegal Trails"
http://www.lvrj.com/news/53397297.html

I have not heard anyone advocating blanket bans of bikes...but certainly safe trail criteria need to apply. I have not been able to find any safe multi-use trail criteria from IMBA that have any specifics. You might take a look at CET&LC (California Equestrian Trails and Lands Coalition). While supporting multi-use trails, they also have some very good criteria and guidelines that trails need to comply to be safe for multi-use, i.e. adding the faster user, the mountain biker.

FYI, I am a huge supporter of closing wet and muddy trails to horses, and would never advocate that horses belong on all trails. Both horses and hikers need to avoid trails after rains and stick to fireroads, which can be maintained easier. But horses and hikers are a far more compatable mix that fast bikes.

And one more thought to chew on....aren't bikes recognized as vehicles under California Vehicle code? Do you notice that most cities do not allow bikes on 4 ft. wide sidewalks due to the risk to pedestrians? If THAT is not safe, how does riding bikes on a 12" trail (with limited visibility, dropoff's, blind corners make any kind of logical sense?

This is not cherry picking at all, there are horror stories from all over the country from huge damages and illegal trails and user conflicts. You Pima Website is encouraging; it is likely they have different types of trails, possibly more visibility, and it works better.

Marin County has had what, a 30 year of a history of failure...the Mbikers have refused to admit they cause any danger to other users or even encourage illegal trail building. What does it say when one of your most vocal bike advocates is caught TWICE building illegal trails? You have conveniently failed to respond to that fact.

Marin is not self-righteous, the hikers and horseback riders are struggling to keep historic hiker and horse trail open for safe riding. Look and see what Marin Conservation league has to say about the issue.

The absurdity of mbikers demanding access is showcased by their attempts to gain access to Bill's Trail, a shady, switchbacked narrow trail with about 0 visibility, no room to pass, and an overall steep descent, which is a prime example of NOT suitable for multi-use. And where does Bill's trail lead? Right down into a horse camp!

Talk about blanket assumptions that anyone protesting does ont ride a bike; our family has about 30 or so bikes; the whole family bikes and has been doing so for 40 some odd years. We chose bikes for both recreational and transportation uses. We do not force our presence on narrow trails where we would endanger other users.

Open space should be left open to wilderness. No human activity, no trails, no hiking poles, no full-suspension. I advocate human-free open space. Breathing room for the other inhabitants of Marin.

I agree with Jay Kay in that there needs to be open space left for wildlife; especially areas with endangered species and fragile habitat......huge value in this and nice to know humans don't have to tromp and stomp everywhere...Life in the bubble again proves that he/she lives in a bubble of their own selfish interests....as long as "I" can do whatever I want, that is all that counts, type of attitude, which is entitlement. This is evidenced also by the fact they have never responded to my facts about key Marin Bike adovocates caught and fined for building illegal bike trails, which is a huge, expensive problem in Marin County. You know, not everyone wants open space to be treated as one big amusement park......

So, I went for my second-ever mountain bike ride this weekend and while I was riding I was thinking about this whole debate and how there were probably people that hated me right now for no reason just cause I was on a bike. And this was my thought: no one is ever going to be able to ban people from biking or hiking or riding horses on all the trails or even many of the trails, because there simply isn't the enforcement mechanisms in place to do so -- parks are closing and understaffed. The only way you can get people not to bike in certain places or ride horses in certain places or even ban people all together from certain places is through their own buy-in and consent. There has to be an agreement. And that's never going to happen when there's name-calling. So.

I fully support whole alive unimproved nature, and I also believe that with all of our modern insanity, and most of us driving our cars all over, or flying here n there, now and again, letting mountain bikers have a trail here n there for their use, is not such a stretch. If they want a place to ride, why not let them have one? We are not exactly being great stewards with the rest of the planet, ulp, I gotta drive up to costco and go shopping, etc. I personally don't really want to share a trail with a bike, and suggest we let them maintain and care for a few dedicated ones. At least they are out on a bike, and not glued to a gps, laptop, television, or cell phone.

Life in a Bubble says :I advocate mountain bikes being part of the process and included in multi-use trails. I advocate making public recreation areas reflect the demographics of their users."

Lets look at this with some logic. Marin County probably has an enormous population of dog owners who would love to walk their dogs and even turn them loose on open space. Many areas are off limits to dogs, even on leash. I bet there are more dog owners than mountain bikers.

Does this mean we turn over trails to dog walkers? Dogs present some of the same problems as mountain bike users; i.e. disturbance of wildlife, and risk to other users.
But you don't see this user group causing the problem that the Mountain bikers continue to do...for the most part the dog owners respect the law and don't go where it is illegal.

The law, park rules, unsafe and illegal is just that, regardless of demographics. Why do the Marin BOS keep knuckling under to this user group (mountain bikers) of entitlement bullies?

This will be my last comment on this topic. Here's what I've learned:

- Some people think that bicycles on dirt are the embodiment of evil. (Their arguments usually include the phrase "I'm a bicyclist too, but..."). Nothing will change their opinion, ever.
- Some people view mountain bikes the same as unregulated motorcycles, or jeeps. (The fact that they are human-powered, quiet, and non-polluting is merely a technicality). Some people also view mountain bike riders as a wildlife destroying eco-terrorist cross between Evil Kneivel, and Attila the Hun.
- Some people can not imagine that someone on a bicycle could have the same natural experiences as someone on foot. Covering many miles and reveling in the joy of winding through forests and ridges is not a valid experience if it's on a bicycle. Traveling quietly with only the sound of breathing and tires quietly crunching on leaves is simply not possible on a bicycle. Riding in control on a bicycle is simply not possible.
- Some people are simply afraid of change.

(Continued)

I've re-read each of my posts on this 50+ comment thread. Each of my posts has been about inclusion, respect for multiple trail users, courtesy, and proper trail design. Each of my posts have pointed out that mountain biking is an important form of outdoor recreation, exercise and transportation. I've tried to point out success stories and examples of cooperation by cyclists and hikers.

I don't feel compelled to answer for illegal trail building (it happens, and represents the vast minority of mountain bikers). I wouldn't ask a mountain bike hater to answer for the trash and vandalism endemic to hiking trails (which I see almost every time I hike or run), or why people can't seem to park safely at trailheads (e.g. Cataract trail on any spring weekend). I wouldn't ask car driver to answer for speeders or tailgaters. For the record, I've never advocated that mountain bikes belong on every trail, or don't need regulation.

In return, I've seen advocating violence against trail users, been told to leave Marin, and been called a bully for advocating inclusion.

The ironic part of this discussion is that I probably log more miles as a hiker/runner than most of the bike haters combined (20-30+ miles/wk on foot on Tam, MMWD, and MCOSD). See you on the trail. I'll be happy to see you out there whether you are on bike, foot or horseback.

Read OpEd in today's IJ (10/25/11) an excellent statement on the issue and need to conserve our resources. http://www.marinij.com/opinion/ci_19184972

Dottie, great article. Makes good points. Life in a Bubble, you have steadfastly refused to admit to the huge problem mountain biking in Marin has caused on singletrack trails with other users, plus the extreme damage and cost to the county by illegal trail building and resource destruction. This isn't just limited to Marin County, illegal trail building by Mt, Bikers is also a huge problem at Annadel State Park. As a group, these users do not mix well with other users, go too fast, put them in danger, and cause a lot of damage. Adding a fast VEHICLE to the narrow trails is not a safe or good idea. It never should have been allowed to happen. Bikes are fantastic for transportation on paved roads, and fireroads that can be maintained with heavy equipment. They have no place on narrow trails with hikers and equestrians who have coexisted well for decades....

Guys, you cannot argue with these people. They will continue to overly sensationalize the user conflicts to thier liking. They will continue to use images of extreme mountain biking as references for thier arguements without noting that most of those extreme bikers run on closed courses. They will not tell you about the hundreds, perhaps thousands of times a biker has been courteous to them. They will not mention the damage and even sabotage members of thier own groups have done. Hikers and equestrians have tried to show us as elitist, extremist, adrenaline junkies and I am sorry that is just not the case.

Don't continue to argue with them, the deciples of NPG and Mike Vandemann love to wrap you up in circular logic. I argued with NPG here:
http://altadena.patch.com/articles/biker-vs-hiker-on-the-way-to-echo-mountain#comments
and here she is regurgitating the same points here. We get this alot in San Diego, we have groups trying to ban bikes from the trails we built legally.

Seriously, mountain bikers, don't bother posting here or anywhere else that is overrun by the rabid anti-bikers. Just joint IMBA or your local bike advocacy group. Donate your time to trail maintenace and a little money if you can. Call your elected officials. Use your time and energy towards the positive and ignore the negative. Be courteous towards all other trail users. Follow the rules and if you don't like the rules help us change them.

Ha, I meant to say Join IMBA not joint, freudian slip I suppose. Furthermore if you want to fight the folks espousing this anti-biker vitriol do it the smart way. The author of this article is a political consultant. Pretty simple, don't vote for anyone she represents and let them know why you and every mountain biker you know will not be voting for them.

Yes, Aaron G and I argued on the other blog and like Life in a Bubble, he totally rationalizes what he and this user group want to do...and totally IGNORES facts when presented. Both of them refuse to comment on the incredible damage and cost to taxpayers by illegal trails (Marin County) , the destruction to environment (cut trees; as many biker-made illegal trails as legal-Annadel)...and people struck and killed (elderly lady in Renton, Washington). How many hikers have to DIE, and horseback riders pushed off CLIFFS by mountain bikers before the land managers stop knuckling under to these bullies and realize it is not more safe combining hikers and bikes on narrow trails than it is on sidewalks...I have never said there was no place for your sport...but it sure the heck isn't on public narrow trails with other, slower moving users who are out to enjoy the quiet of nature. I also offered to physically xerox and copy the L.A. City Parks Majority Report and he did not take me up on this offer....again, head in sand, refusing to look at facts

Aaron's comment about the Majority report is laughable. I did offer to take my time to copy and send it to him and yes, I ask for him to cover the costs, like I did when I had a copy sent to me, duh. As far as talking points, how about him just ignoring facts. Here you go:
Tahoe area illegal trails and mentions Key Marin mtn bike advocate Michael Moore and all his illegal trail building:
http://www.lvrj.com/news/53397297.html

Elderly Renton Woman killed by mountain biker
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/sound/article/Elderly-Renton-woman-hit-by-bike-rider-on-Cedar-894493.php

Illegal trail building Annadel:
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20100705/ARTICLES/100709758

What have the local bike goups done to repair all the mtn bike illegal trails built at Annadel?

How many hikers a year die because of their own stupidity? How many fall off a cliff because they simply weren't paying attention? I never hear about giant week-long rescue efforts costing millions of dollars to find lost mountain bikers. You hear about it with hikers every winter.
Cherry picking and exploiting accidents for your lame and exclusionary cause is simply rhetoric.
I ride in Marin twice a week every week. I come across hikers less than once a month. Most of my rides I see absolutely no-one: no bikers, no horses, no-one. So, to me it seems like there is plenty of room out there for everyone.

If there was a way to guarantee that this mix could work on narrow single track trails, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Fact is, there's no way to restrict mountain bikes to move as slowly as walking people and horses.

As it is now, you have a wealth of beautiful wilds to roam and enjoy on bike, with room to pass. Why not choose to respect others and share in a way that does the least harm?

It's awesome how your version of 'respect' is 'exclude'. You are totally blind to your own rhetorical position: Separate is never equal.
Like most bikers, I never have a problem with the rare hiker I encounter. I stop, they stop, and then we pass each other. 99% of the problem is extremists like the commenters here that are trying to create a problem that I have never encountered in YEARS of riding the trails every week.
Maybe stay out of China Camp on Sunday morning when it's amateur hour and the invading hordes from SF show up to klutz around and fall over each other.
Hey! There's an idea! Let's just ban people from out of town from the state parks they pay for.

Aaron G., it is just great there are bike only trails...and if you want to allow hikers, I commend you. That allows the younger, more athletic people to co-mingle if they choose. But many of our Marin and Sonoma County trails have steep dropoffs and limited visibility. This makes it unsafe for older, less nimble hikers, pregnant women, hikers carrying babies, etc. They are not able, nor should be expected to jump aside for a speeding biker, especially on trails that have been traditionally hiker and or equestrian. 10 years ago, when I was more athletic and running trails, I was nearly hit by a mountain biker. Nice guy, but going too fast for the visibility. Ditto when I was riding and my horse had to jump to the side to avoid being hit on a blind corner. Both times I was injured. The injuries are not isolated to that one incident in Washington...in Santa Barbara, a mother and her 8 year old daugher went over a cliff when a speeding mountain biker neearly hit their horses....(the horse died, thankfully not the people). Again, the majority report is full of these incident reports, as well as the Sacramento foothill website, Park Watch.

Here is the bottom line; you cannot one one user group that puts everyone else in danger....and the safety issues, illegal uses and been going on for 25 some odd years and NOT getting any better. Hikers and Equestrians do not have some random dislike of mountain bikers or bikes (many like me are huge bike advocates), but they are legitimitely scared of being struck and hurt.

Mountain bikers do not realize they are in the same position as motorized off-highway vehicles of about 30 years ago. "We can all get along! We can all get along!," they chanted. But it didn't work out that way. Off-highway vehicles are now restricted to certain areas that are ONLY for OHV. So, let the mountain bikers go buy a mountain, and they can tear it up as they please. While they're at it, maybe they can pay license fees, registrations fees, and use fees. That'll provide for upkeep of the mountain bike only areas.

Just because the bully comes on the playground doesn't mean we have to share. And the bully grabbing the ball, i.e. trails, and saying "you're supposed to share" doesn't make it so.

Come on folks, both sides are fool of stale beans. Blah, blah, blah, he said, she said, I said, they said, we said, and it's mostly hot air going round and around, and around, with fool on righteousness and blowhards on both sides, which, well, just ain't doing much, eh? Most folks can likely agree and see both sides, as well as hear what folks are sayin?
Nah, I guess not. I forgot, we are humans, and tend to shoot each other, in general, before being willing to really listening to what is being said or asked.
To read some folks here, one could be convinced that all bike riders are the devil incarnate, and want to ride bikes on every trail, everywhere, to the death and injury of humans and nature, etc, and all horse or bipedally powered humans do no harm.
Get off yer high horses, high heals, and high knobby tires (either on yer bike, BMW, or whatever gas powered bucket of bolts you get along in,) folks, swap sopwiths and ride or walk in each others skins a bit, and, make the world a better place for everybody?

Can someone clarify for me why you can't have designated days on certain mixed use trails, so, say hikers and bikers would be using the single track on different days ? I am mostly a hiker and grew up in Marin hiking and biking these trails (for me mostly fire roads) and have never had an issue with mtn bikers (FAR FAR less than road bikers) but have had to scramble down a steep hillside holding a one year old , a four year old, a fishing pole and tackle box to let an equestrian go by, who then requested that I hold my fishing pole still, as she is watching me slowly slide down the hillside with my kids. Now she was very nice, but I honestly couldn't believe that horses and people were allowed on this single track (with no pull outs anywhere) around Bon Tempe lake where people and kids go fishing all the time....but sure enough ( I checked) they were allowed. That to me was far scarier than a bike. If the horse HAD gotten spooked it would have been a far more dangerous situation than an encounter with a bike. I advocate use for everyone on these trails and I think all it would take would be a some civil discussions about how to work it out so it works for everyone. NPG or anyone else...again, can you please explain, why we can't figure out a way in which everyone can enjoy the nature that those before us, worked so tirelessly to preserve, for ALL of us to enjoy recreationally.

Kerry and Aaron, alternate days do not work, this has already been tried and mentioned in the Trails Common Ground Commitee in a letter to State Parks. Kerry, sounds to me like the trail you mentioned is NOT a safe one for horses and hikers. Aaron, you are kidding, right? Hikers and Equestrians have been asked to do all the compromise....both groups keep being told they need to share, need to train their horses better, or somehow modify how they use trails they have used for years. I agree that modern mountain bikes operate a lot more like off road vehicles in terms of useage and damage, than foot users. The bikes have bigger, knobby tires, reinforced frames and suspensions, and many riders use body armour. NOT A COMPATABLE USE!! I also firmly believe that wet and muddy trails should be closed to bikes and horses-both user groups do equal but different kinds of damage. Aaron, again, you do not know the terrain in Marin, with lack of visibility in a lot of places......

continued.....perhaps you have more open terrain in your area with better visibility and in that case, I can see things working fine. Maybe there is room for passing. In my area, and many parts of Marin, lots of trails cannot be made wider, with passing areas, or have steep dropoffs, and you cannot clear 50 ft. of line of sight on blind turns. Many of the trails at Pt. Reyes National Seashore are closed to bikes for this very reason...which, I might ad, doesn't seem to deter them, I see mountain bikes riding closed trails just about everytime I go ride there. This has absolutely nothing to do with people being unwilling to share..it has to do with a proven safety risk-and upheld in U.S. Supreme court!

The Supreme Court! Ooooo.
Again, no compromise possible with the anti-bike set. It's like our own little Organic Wild-Crafted Tea Party. Keep your Government hands off my State Park!

Jeffrey, do you have anything positive to offer, such as facts? Or again, just resorting to sarcasm. This user conflict has been well documented for over 30 years. It has not worked on many levels.

Well, I hike the trails on and off, and I used to bike them in the earlly '90's. I really love it when people complain about mountain bikers creating illegal trails. Err..where do you think many if not most of the hiking trails came from? Do you think they were planned out by the government? No. They were just built by people who loved to hike on the mountain and surrounding hills. My grandmother was one of these early hikers. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Of course, in the times we live in, it is more prudent to make trails the legal way. But hikers and equestrians, please stop the holier than thou attitude in regards to trail building. Times change. People want access to trails, on the mountain that is the known birthplace of the sport. Why can't they get the same consideration that other communities around the world give to their mountain biking community? Do you think WE are so much different?

I love that this discussion is so lively, but I am saddened that the biking "community" seems for the most part to be oblivious to the reality that the mountain is a fragile ecosystem, not an amusement park. Are you so different? Your vehicles are; they are vehicles. They are made for speed, for thrills, not for quiet enjoyment of nature.

I am sorry that you do not get it that you are welcome on the mountain trails, the way any hiker is, just get off the bike, and walk. I'm all for putting a few well-placed bike stands at the trailheads leading off the fire roads, for you to secure your bike and take a hike. Try it; you may like it.

Want some facts?
My average speed on my last 5 rides in Marin was 3.7 MPH.
My bike /IS/ the way I get quiet enjoyment of nature.
Once again, the anti-bike naysayers have nothing to add except: "I don't like it, therefore it's bad".
The 'fragile ecosystem' is being destroyed daily by millions of cars and pollution and global warming: 3 things my bike does not contribute to. How do you get to trails on the mountain? Drive your car. How do horses get up there? Driven by a giant 6 MPG truck. On a road. That is paved. Through previously 'pristine' wilderness.
The fact is that actual paved roads and state-required fire-roads contribute FAR more to erosion that any singletrack trail.

and NativePlantGirl: What 'positive' thing does an anonymous internet troll add? I've got 10 bucks that says you are actually one of the standard anti-bike trolls from the Marin IJ and other places. 'terri sweet' perhaps.

Jeffrey said, "the anti-bike naysayers have nothing to add except: "I don't like it, therefore it's bad".
First of all I and others are not anti-bike and you know nothing about our bike usages. Nobody is saying we don't like it, so it is bad...I and others, are have presented facts, statistics, and reports until blue in the face, which you group steadfastly ignores. This really has nothing to do about what people want. That is irrelevant compared to safety issues, lawbreaking, and resource managment. You need to grow up and obey the laws and rules, even if you don't like them. And I have no idea who Terri Sweet is....

I also notice that NPG does not identify herself as an equestrian - ie: someone that benefits from many many trails in Marin being open to HER non-walking form of outdoor recreation, due to being 'grandfathered' in. Meanwhile, horse farms and trails dominate the landscape through out the county, have tons of private property to ride, but want to exclude others from use of public lands. Is there anything more elitist than that? The fact that a person that owns a 1 ton methane producing animal carted around in a polluting SUV from Sonoma to Marin and back can complain about 'environmental impact' is laughable.
That said, all myself and the other bikers have ever asked for is /some/ more access to /some/ trails, /some/ of the time. Seems pretty freakin reasonable to me.

Support MCBC. http://www.marinbike.org/Campaigns/MTB/Launch.shtml

The bike riders are hypocrites. They want dedicated bike trails everywhere they can be built, witness the SMART trail. (Yes, I know, "pedestrians" will be allowed. As if people are going to walk station to station.) On surface streets they demand, at the very least, separate bike lanes. Yet off-road they're all about "can't we all just get along?" What's so hard to understand that cars are to bikes as bikes are to pedestrians. Bicycles don't mix well on the hills. It's not that complicated. But you all want what you want. So damn teh rest of us.

BTW: bellowing "on your left," is not a magic spell that automatically protects the slower moving hiker.

Aaron G
Thanks for the anecdotal posting about drivers. I was amused by many of these postings. We have two horses, and I don't ride at all. I have two mountain bikes and ride occasionally. We do not trailer our horses, so the whole gas gazzuling thing is gone (and we recycle our waste). I don't think my wife rides single track, but there is no frigging way horses and bikes can work on it. If a horse gets spooked by a bike rider, then horse freaks, and you are in liability central..so that is a big issue...a very big issue..environmentally...meh...one horse does way more damage than one bike, but a herd of bikes becomes a different issue. I don't ride so I can't defend the equestrian's, but we do need a reality check on this whole post-both need to grow the heck up, and act responsible!...

FYI, a typical horse does not weigh "one ton", try 1,000 lb, with one or two feet on the ground at one time. Many horses these days are ridden barefoot or wear rubber boots which leave a minimal print. You just cannot compare the weight of a horse and rider to a person on a bike. A horse or bike on a hard trail will leave very little impact. A horse on a wet trail will leave an circular imprint; many horses will leave potholes. A bike will lay down a solid track that will channel water and gully a trail, especially if other bike riders use the same trail. Neither user should be on muddy trails. I observed a trail about 2 days after a rain. Both the horse and bike tire left about a 1/4" impression in the trail. The hoof print will hold a small puddle and then shrink. The track of the bike will channel water and gully the trail the rest of the winter and every time it rains.

Yeah, a 1000 pound animal that can lose control without any provocation is TOTALLY safe to be on the trails with hikers, yet a 26 pound bike ridden by an reasonable human that can understand and obey the English language is 'incompatible'.
Perfect example of why your argument against bikes on the same trails as hikers when horses are allowed on those trails is a load of horse shit.
As far as trail damage, you've heard of maintenance, right? The trails around Marin are decades old, and most of them are basically identical to the day they were created - by hikers "destroying the wilderness". You people have your heads so far up your horses asses you can't even see straight.
Every mountain biker on this thread is completely willing to find a compromise solution and work for some kind of parity as to access. Meanwhile the 'ban-the-bikes' collation has zero interest in losing their exclusive type of access to public lands. Selfish and elitist, and all of your bogus 'environmental impact' whining does not dissuade anyone with any first hand knowledge of the trail system in Marin. Trails have zero impact when compared to any other human endeavor, and only extremists would bother to argue that some dirt in the woods is somehow 'damaging', when it is really the entirety of human civilization that is the real culprit. As soon as none of you drive a car, use plastic, eat mass-farmed grains, or heat your homes please let us know.

JGizmo: Your overreaction, with the above post, is EXACTLY the point the walkers are making. The bikers go bat shit and are uncontrollable. Thank you for showing that in print. Otherwise I'm curious, where are you on car use, plastic, monoculture grains, and home heating? Before I say anything I want to make sure you're pure and sweet, and don't touch ANY of those items you mentioned. Cause if you did, then we're at a level playing field, and it's telling that walkers can see point of bikers, but bikers just tantrum out, like you just did, whining and screaming. If this is how you react to words, how loud are you when you hit the ground? hahahahha

LOL! I'm overreacting? What are you gonna do Ed, shoot me with a tranquilizer dart?

Spent the last couple of days working as a sawyer in the Tahoe Basin clearing hazard trees for a new 2.7 mile multi-use singletrack. A new trail is being built to close a gap and decommisson an eroded jeep road. It's a win-win for all trail users. All users get to use a trail instead of a rutted jeep road, and there will be less erosion into Lake Tahoe. In South Lake Tahoe 13-miles of new multi-use singletrack was built along the Tahoe Rim Trail, and a new 4-mile section is under construction to bypass a jeep road. All of these projects were completed with full support of land managers. The new 13-mile Daggett Summit project was spearheaded by (gasp) a hiker for all trail users. Everyone wins, everyone gets new outdoor opportunities, different user groups actually cooperate. (Except in Marin, where mountain bikes KILL and DEVASTATE the environment).

Oh sure, NPG and others will post the same anecdotes about illegal singletrack, and the same anecdotal story about a woman killed by a mountain biker. Here are some anecdotes- about 36,000 people are killed by cars each year in the U.S., and in 2009 there were 10.9 million vehicle accidents. Statistically, you are vastly more likely to be killed or injured getting to the trail than to ever have a bad experience with a bicycle. I think the anti-cyclist vitriol is misplaced. The anti-bike anecdotes are just that. There are larger, more pressing issues than denying your neighbors access to the outdoors.

Proof, you're never too old to learn to TROLL the internet.

After 25 years of mtn biking in Marin, the same old arguments over and over.

Speed seems to be a major complaint. Ironically, bicycle riders want to ride on single track trails that challenge us at much LOWER SPEEDS.

I've seen two kind of horse riders out on the trail. Ones that talk to me and help me work with horse riders. Other riders that are totally miffed, they are silent, and just look angry. Mtn bikers have two types too. The share the trails type and the "I don't give a rat's *ss" type. The later type is rather embarrassing, but sometime created by constant denial of access to trails.

Everyone wants to go 50 feet off a city street and be on a trail that is just for them. News flash, there are 250,000 people in this county. We need to learn to share the trails. There is one change in Marin. There are more and more mtn bikers that are tired of being lumped into a single category of lawless riders and denied access to public land. Occupy the Trails could be the next movement.

It's good that Kevin and Jeffrey posted as they are prime examples of Mtn Bikers who totally ignore facts and try to bully and bluster their way into justifying access to all trails. Listen up guys, you DO have equal access to all trails, just not with your vehicles; becuase it is often not safe, or sustainable. Join the ranks of the dog walkers, motorized dirt bikers or any other user group that does not fit in well with foot traffic-that are not allowed access to narrow trails.. What has not worked in the past is alternate days, speed limits, yielding, etc. Becuase -enough- Mountain bikers have ignored restrictions in the past, and even with compliant bikers, there are still safety issues. . This is repeated and proven all over the country. Sorry your bikes are often denied access to public trails and lands on trails..public lands exist for compatable recreational use, and protection of the resources. Life in a Bubble, are the mounatin bikers who are helping build multi-use trails in the Tahoe Area also working to repair the damamge from their illegal trail building? To not have restrictions would open up all public lands to a total free-for-all.

Nativeplantgial - I take it you'e a horsie gal who feels entitled to ride on trails, but not share with others. That's OK, it's your opinion. Ahhh, the old circular hoof print argument. We were laughing about that argument at lunch. I've spent plenty of time riding horses, my friend who worked at a horse ranch as a teen knows how you can tear up a trail with just a few horses. Also, we talked about high strung horses that you'd think they were on meth, out on Marin trails. I've seen a mtn bike ride through a herd of wild mustangs and most of the wild horses never stopped eating, none walked more than 5 feet from their original position. Yet some horses in Marin seems really high strung. Must get it from their owners.

(Continued)

So what's being done in the Tahoe Basin is to officially develop the kinds of trails that the advanced downhill type mountain bikers want to ride. (Which, by the way make up a minority of riders- most are neighborhood people who just want to get outside for some healthy recreation). So there are new trails being built to satisfy the "downhillers" with big jumps and technical features. Except that these are legal trails built by USFS crews, CCC crews, and volunteers that meet all the modern standards for trail design and erosion control. It seems to be working. By creating legal trails that meet the needs of the people, there is less illegal trail building.

The other thing that's being done in the Tahoe Basin is to make almost every new trail multi-use bike legal. You can minimize user conflict through proper trail design. Maximize sight lines, create enough twists and turns to control bike speed, build to minimize erosion, and educate trail users. Pretty simple really.

Marin has scores of miles of trails which were "illegally" built by hikers, runners, and horses over the last century. Many of them are erosion channels even without bicycles (Sunshine, Nail Trail, Dutchman's Rock, etc). They were simply grandfathered into the trail network.

There will always be the 1% of jerks, whether mountain biker or hiker (or life in general). The 1% of hikers who leave trash, cigarette butts, and graffiti do just as much damage as any mountain bike.

Life, posted "The 1% of hikers who leave trash, cigarette butts, and graffiti do just as much damage as any mountain bike." Of course this is wrong of them...but these hikers are not putting the other users groups in danger. That is the big difference. You logic, and Kevins, and Jefferys, is totally convoluted. You cannot justify more illegal trails becuase there are older trails made before public lands were protected or managed well. This is like continuing to tresspass into a closed area. A good example Searsville Lake at Stanford Univeristy. Although Stanford land, it used to be a public swimming lake and open to group camping.. Then the University started doing population studies up on ajoining Jasper Ridge and the whole area was closed to the public. So now I can't go there. Oh well, I now take great satisfaction that this fragile area is protected. In my life, I have hiked, run trails, biked and ridden horseback. Kevin, I do not feel "entitled" to ride or hike any trails; I feel grateful and appreciative and try to minimize my impact, in those areas where I am allowed. I do not ride my horses on trails that say "no horses", and I do not ride muddy trails. I also do weekly trail maintenance on public lands and have done so for 20 years.

"Life", again, maybe 40 some-odd miles illegal bike trails at Annadel, with 44 legal trails, and still that is not enough for the bike crowd. When will those be fixed, and by who?

@ NativePlantGal

I see you've lumped dog walkers in with off-road motorcycles and mountain bikes. Wow!

Next time I walk my dog, I'll let Daisy know that she "does not fit in well with foot traffic and is not allowed access to narrow trails." (Your words, hilarious!) We will all have to meet up so that you can explain to her why she (at 38 pounds and 16" tall) is not allowed, but horses are okay. She'll just look at me with those big brown eyes like I'm crazy.

I'm totally reinvigorated by this discussion! I'll keep harping on my positive message, and doing lots of volunteer work for ALL user groups (actually putting my money where my mouth is). You can keep going with your message too- the one where mountain bikes (and motorcycles and dog walkers) kill, and pillage and a bicycle could not possibly be a healthy, non-polluting, non-impact form of recreation. I'm hoping we can set some sort of Patch comment record.

I need a bit more clarification, Are NPG and Dottie suggesting that bikes should never ever ever ever be allowed on single tracks ?

"Life" are you paying attention at all to this thread or do you just like to manipulate people's posts (i.e. Troll) Go back and read all my posts. I commented that dog walkers probably make up a bigger percentage of wanna-be trail users that Mtn Bikers in Marin...and often are banned from public lands. Yes, becuase irresponsible owners have let dogs off leash to chase wildlife, knock down and bite other people and be a nuisance. That is a shame, because I would greatly enjoy walking my dog on many trails and cannot. My point being is that you don't have a huge problem with rogue dog walkers disobeying laws and going into banned areas, nor do you have this problem in Marin with dirt bikers. Certainly not on the level you do with Mountain bikers making illegal trails and going too fast, endangering other trail users and riding trails they are banned from

Kerry, are you paying attention to my posts? I have never stated that and have posted that it may work well in some areas on some trails. It certainly has been a consistent problem in Marin County for the past 30 years, (the birthplace of Mountain biking and perhaps more correctly, the birthplace of illegal mountain biking), since your user group just started using and making trails without permission or studies to see if that fit well with other users. Somebody mentioned they think is it 1% of rogue Mtn Bikers who are the problem...in my personal experiences and research, I put it much more at 50%. Do I need to mention that when I run into mountain bikers on trails I am always smiling and offering to move aside?
Courtesy goes along way and everybody should practice it. It still does not make this a compatable mix due to speed differential on narrow trails with limited visibility. How can you guys refuse to understand that and that other trail users are scared? IMBA and other bike groups have pushed for access to ALL trails. I have yet to see any specific safe trail criteria from IMBA...or that they would even suggest that some trails are not suitable for multi use......

....Lets also establish that there is a huge difference from creating new trails and maintaining old trails. Yes, I agree a trail built correctly will hold up to use and abuse a lot better than one adapted from game or old ranch trails and can be created to be more sustainable. But those old trails do still exist and are still used and very often cannot be made wide enough, or cleared enough to be safe for multi-use. Those are the ones (some of these old, historic hiker and horse trails) that should not allow bikes. No way to make it safe.

NativePlantgal, I do not feel "entitled" to ride or hike any trails; I feel grateful and appreciative and try to minimize my impact, in those areas where I am allowed. I do not ride my BIKE on trails that say "no BIKES", and I do not ride muddy trails.

Odd, I do the same as you. I rode all of the single track trails in GGNRA before they were closed. When I lived in Mill Valley, I rode all of the single track trails over there.

To me mud is a big issue. When trails are wet, they should be closed to horses and bikes. I've seen hoof marks that were over a foot deep in Tennessee Valley. I am surprised the rider didn't roll the horse. Fire roads like Old Railroad grade are rock hard and are not greatly impacted when wet. Other fire roads should be closed after hard rains. It's a case by case.

You address all mtn bikers as if we are all law breakers. I am not. But I grew up in Berkeley and I've seen what happens when people get pushed around for too long. Civil disobedience is often the result.

Kerry, not sure who NPG is, but I wouldn't be surprised if her real name was Connie.

Mountain Bikers Co-opt Marin Bicycle Coalition... Actually, the opposite is true. There have been two groups in Marin. The BTC was the off-road group. The MBC was the on-road group. After decades of being independent, the MBC has taken the BTC into their group. Quite the opposite of the title of this blog. The MBC has some lobbying power behind it. Interesting days ahead. LOL!

Kevin, that is great you obey the current park rules and don't ride muddy trails. I wish every trail user was as responsible. The point I keep trying to get across is that on a lot of narrow trails, bikes are not a safe mix with hikers and horses. This has been proven and documented over the past 30 years. The speed differential is the problem. There are probably off-road trails and areas (open for ORv's) that are a better fit for your sport than foot trails. That would have your included with other vehicles that like to go fast and have challenges with no restrictions. I have no idea who "Connie" is....... I have not said all bike riders are law breakers, quite the opposite. I have been saying that even with compliant and responsible mountain bike riders, it is not a safe mix on narrow trails with hikers and horses. I am just sort of taken aback that you guys refuse to admit or see that.

We refuse to admit it because it is not true, any more than having a 1000 pound animal (which is guess what? technically a vehicle: "A person riding a horse or other animal on a highway may be driving a vehicle for traffic offenses purposes" California Vehicle Code section 21050) that can lose control with no provocation on those same trails.
You have repeatedly used one single incident to highlight the 'danger' - one documented death out of the 100's of millions of rides every year.
200 people a year are killed in horse accidents. There are NO statistics for mountain bike related deaths - they are lumped in with the 800 or so 'bike accidents' each year, 89% of which are auto-related. So, of that 11%, maybe 1/3 (generously!) are mountain bike accidents? That's what, two dozen? So right there, horses are more dangerous than mountain bikes, and horses should be banned from ALL trails. QED.

Jeffrey, your argument is patently absurd...there are many many recorded Mtn Bike deaths and injuries every year, and I bet more than horse related, and many involving emergency crews, helicopters, etc. I doubt you want to do go down that road.

This entire safety argument is patently absurd. Please document for me the last reported mountain bike related hiker death that occurred in Marin County.

The last remaining argument that actually has weight after all this posturing seems to be the one where bikes, horses and hikers can't enjoy the same trails at the same time safely and enjoyably for all. Let's agree to disagree on why that is, but there it is. If you say you don't feel safe or the way you should feel when you're out in the woods, then it's true. So what to do?

Pretty easy really: Identify the trails in question that can safely be navigated by all three user groups individually and set up a schedule of use. It's like visitation rights after the divorce. Make it so that trail schedules link up to create 'suggested rides' or 'suggested hikes' so that on the scheduled day and time you can have every expectation that you'll have the trails to yourself or only with people who like to use them like you do. Sure, there will be transgressions but it can't possibly be worse than it is now, can it?

Slow down there, John F. These are decisions that need to be made within a proper context, with full environmental review. You don't just have a private organization identify trails and then claim them. There are a variety of agencies involved with trails and land management, MMWD, State Parks, Federal Parks, County Parks, etc.

NPG- You said, "You cannot justify more illegal trails because there are older trails made before public lands were protected or managed well."

I have never justified the use or building of illegal trails, in any post, ever. You have consistently taken my continued and ongoing statements of user group cooperation, proper trail design, respect, education of trail users, and case by case review of trails for multi-use compatibility and misrepresented my posts as endorsing the use and building of illegal trails.

You have also conveniently ignored the dozens of miles of illegal hiker built social trails in Marin, while pointing out massive damage by mountain bikes. You have also conveniently ignored the environmental horse damage to all trails within a mile of any stable in Marin. That is hypocrisy, plain and simple. (All human activity in the outdoors has an impact).

NPG- "But those old trails do still exist and are still used and very often cannot be made wide enough, or cleared enough to be safe for multi-use. Those are the ones (some of these old, historic hiker and horse trails) that should not allow bikes. No way to make it safe."

And I've argued the exact same thing- namely that bicycles do NOT belong on every trail. But that they do belong on some of them (with proper review and mitigation). There are dozens of examples of multi-use trails working with minimal user conflict.

NPG- You said, ""Life", again, maybe 40 some-odd miles illegal bike trails at Annadel, with 44 legal trails, and still that is not enough for the bike crowd. When will those be fixed, and by who?"

(Always headed straight for the negative).

What about the dozens of miles of "illegally built" hiking social trails. Namely the 3-4 illegal hiker connectors between Fx-Bolinas Road and Old Vee road (3 of them run along creeks), the 5-6 on the Terra Linda/Sleepy Hollow Open Space, Sunshine Trail (Cascade Canyon), the trail between Cascade Falls and Split Rock Falls (which is an erosion nightmare directly into a creek), and several in Deer Park and Bald Hill? Those make up around 20-miles of illegal hiker trails just in Ross Valley alone. When will those be fixed, and by whom? I've run and hiked all of them repeatedly over the last 20+ years. I suspect you've been using more illegal trails that you will admit to as well. (For the record, I'd categorize an "illegal" trail as one that exists and is in common use, but isn't officially recognized).

You've been making the argument that hikers/equestrians are completely blameless, and mountain bikes are pretty much pure evil (I can just quote your previous posts if you like). Hiking a fall line trail along a creek creates erosion into waterways. Hikers, runners, horses, and bicycles do it every day in Marin. All human activity has an impact. All of it.

Kelly, let us know when we've achieved the Patch record for comments on a post. I think this one's a winner..

NPG- You said "I have been saying that even with compliant and responsible mountain bike riders, it is not a safe mix on narrow trails with hikers and horses. I am just sort of taken aback that you guys refuse to admit or see that."

You also said, "How can you guys refuse to understand that and that other trail users are scared?"

I think the issue is that you personally are scared, and you want to transfer your fear of bicycles to all trail users under the guise of public safety. Here's the funny thing: most people who ride mountain bikes also hike/run. Some (gasp), even ride horses too. Your anti-bike hatred/fear is balanced at the other end by the 1% of the bike jerks who ride irresponsibly (e.g. you are at one end of the bell curve, and the mountain bike jerks are at the other). Most people are squarely in the middle and aren't really worried about being killed by their neighbor on a bicycle. But that's life, and some people live scared of what might happen whether backed up by reality or not.

I'll bet all my bicycles and running shoes that statistically, you are vastly more likely to be killed or injured by a mundane injury in the home than ever injured by a bicycle. 1,300 people are killed falling down stairs each year, and around 300 people drown in bathtubs each year, along with 10.8 million vehicle accidents (source, Census and National Safety Council).

The issue is fear. Sorry. Not a personal attack.

NPG- You said, "Somebody mentioned they think is it 1% of rogue Mtn Bikers who are the problem...in my personal experiences and research, I put it much more at 50%"

Please document these statistics. This confirms my previous post.

I think the real issue (and sorry for the psychoanalysis), isn't about environmental damage or public safety. It's about the fear of having a bad experience outdoors, and of losing a sanctuary of sorts. That's a legit concern. I think your underlying argument is, "I'm afraid a bicyclist is going to ruin my outdoor experience." Or, "I'm afraid a bicyclist is going to come around the corner and hit me." That's legit too. We can work with that.

There's no way I can think of to change that. I can only hope that you can find a way to come closer to the middle of the bell curve, and learn to live with a variety of trail users without it ruining your natural experience. It's really a non-issue for most trail users. It's not even on the radar of most trail users.

Personally, I'm not petrified with fear when I run or hike. I, (and most mountain bikes), just want to be able to enjoy more of the outdoors on our mountain bikes. Being able to cover 20-30 miles in a day, under your own power, with little noise is a sanctuary, too. Being able to reach a ridge or mountain top that would be unattainable on foot is a sanctuary of outdoor experience too. 99% of cyclists are just regular folks who want to be outdoors.

"Life", I cannot speak to the little illegal trails you talk about in Marin as I don't know those ones, but I can only hope that volunteer groups (all user groups) will help land managers repair the damage or close some of them down.
As documenting my guesstimate on 50% of bikers are illegal riders or whatever, that data exists in reports such as the Majority Report, or Parkwatch reports, and represented in all the other trail users that comment on near misses with Mtn Bikers. The problems are reported by the State appointed multi-use member State Recreational Trails Committee and also echoed by the Greenways conference Common Ground Committee. It is not just me with the "fear", it is a whole lot of other users, and we refuse to be patronized by calling it a "perception" of fear..it is an actual safety problem. I have been hurt by a mountain biker on a narrow trail, period. Many, many others have been forced to jump out of the way, or dumped by their horses, or nearly run down. What do you thiink the article was all about, and the one in Altadena? Hikers are totally frustrated and scared. Horses have been spooked and even pushed off cliffs (Santa barbara).

I agree totally with attempting to make new trails safe multi-use trails. I have never stated I was opposed to those and have pointed out trails such as Bolinas Ridge where multi-use works well, and is safe and enjoyable for everyone. But trails less than the width of a sidewalk, with steep grades, heavy vegetation and droppoffis, I just can';t see those types of trails will ever be safe for multi-use

Life, the Majority report is not a radio show. I only have a paper copy. Contact L.A. City Parks and see if they can get you one.

some safe trail standards from California Equestrian trails and Lands Coalition who represent over 15 major equestiian groups in California. http://www.calequestriancoalition.com/FinalVerCETLCSafetyGuides.htm

Park watch is created courtesy from Recreational Trails Advisory Committee
http://www.parkwatchreport.org/ yes, lots of legal singletrack and LOTS of illegal trail use and user conflicts.

""If "health" is your goal, you should also know that the sport of mountain biking incurs far more serious injuries on an annual basis than most any other sport. "" http://www.safetrails.net/stats.asp

Mother and 8 year old daughter on horseback pushed off cliff in Santa Barbara by speeding mountain biker....horse died.

here is a possible source for the Majority Report:
History of Failure - Trail Closures in North America
The Majority Report by the Mountain Bike Access Working Group, a Citizen Advisory Body Convened by the City of Los Angeles Department of Recreation & Parks published September 15, 2000
To get a copy of the "Majority Report",
SafeTrails@cox.net ($14).

Aaron, are you serious? First of all, yes, a speeding, downhill, out of control person on a mountain bike (what, 200lb or so) could hit a horse in the haunches or side and knock them off the trail..or the horse could lose balance scrambling to get away...but let me assure you, a most horses will do everything possible to avoid going over the edge of a cliff! Your remarks imply that is it okay if the horse went over if only spooked, which shows a total, embarassing lack of concern for the safety of others, and is absolutely irrelevant!!!
The biker was going too fast, on a historically hiker and horse trail-which is a problem in that area. It is not safe for multi-use, nor compatable for biking. Mountain bikers drive their bikes up to the top of the ridge and come down as fast as they can...

My remarks imply nothing other than pointing out your tendency to use sensational language that is factually incorrect. In fact if we are referring to the same incident the rider never actually came into contact with the horse therefore physically "pushing" the animal never happened. I also never implied that the biker was innocent. I really like that you use safetrails.net as a reference, the most biased, skewed anti-mountainbiker site I have seed aside from trailkillerz.org.
I like how they used injury statistics from Moab Utah, one of the most difficult, dangerous mountain bike destinations in the world. Gee, do you think more advanced riders challenging themselves will get hurt more often on that kind of terrain? You can use stats like that to scare people if you want. I have been doing this for 25 years and I have never broken anything. It is still safer than your morning commute.

NativePlantGal- Your use of sensational headlines and dubious sources is hilarious! There is a broken record quality to pulling out the same sensational headlines time and again (e.g. mountain biker pushes mother and 8-year old off cliff, or mountain biker kills senior citizen- both of which you've used numerous times to incite fear). An honest assessment would also reveal that horse riders have also pushed other trail users off cliffs, and that horses have spooked entirely on their own throwing their riders off cliffs (or onto their heads). Years ago in Marin a group of equestrians rode Nail Trail (off limits to horses). One of the riders and a horse went off a cliff and the horse to be euthanized trailside. Guess what? Equestrians break the law too. So there you go, my sensational headline. Ooh, how about this one. The trailside strangler (1980s I think). A hiker!!!! Should I cite those examples on every post? That would be ridiculous.

The point is that you are always pulling out sensational examples to incite fear. Yet you've never acknowledged the literally millions of examples of hikers, equestrians, and mountain bikes having benign, uneventful, totally forgettable encounters. The overwhelming majority of interactions between mountain bikes and other trail users are completely uneventful. Hope you are honest enough to recognize that you are vastly more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than a mountain bike.

Just back from Santa Monica and Los Angeles where there is also serious dispute over the attitude and bearing of those on bicycles. They dislike "serious" bike riders there as well. Turns out that even on the flat land there are speed and safety issues from those who hold themselves over the rest of us as some sort of super beings doing their selfish all for the environment. The rest of us be damned.

Last weekend a woman was thrown from her horse and required a helicopter ride off the trail. I hope she has a full and quick recovery.

""If "health" is your goal, you should also know that the sport of mountain biking incurs far more serious injuries on an annual basis than most any other sport. "" http://www.safetrails.net/stats.asp

This is almost comical. You have to find an article on Moab Utah to support your case? Moab is like night and day compared to Marin. Slick Rock area... been there, rode that. FYI: It was a motorcycle riding area before mtn bikers caught on.

We should probably remove basketball hoops from playgrounds as that is a dangerous sport. LOL!

If speed and dangerous riding is what you're trying to curtail then perhaps we should ban mountain bikes from the fire roads where they can reach high speeds. Riding on singletrack requires much lower speeds as the terrain is more varied and challenging and it's likely to be ridden only by more experienced riders. Open up the singletrack trails and require that fire roads only be ridden uphill. There - safety problem solved. :)

What needs to be curtailed is the "we do no wrong" arrogance of bikers.

John Ferguson wrote: "If speed and dangerous riding is what you're trying to curtail then perhaps we should ban mountain bikes from the fire roads where they can reach high speeds. Riding on singletrack requires much lower speeds as the terrain is more varied and challenging and it's likely to be ridden only by more experienced riders. Open up the singletrack trails and require that fire roads only be ridden uphill. There - safety problem solved. :)

Um....is your user group totally unable to control themselves and ride safe speeds without natural and added obstacles on the trail? I have heard this silly argument before: technical trails naturally slow them down...in fact it gets downright absurd, i.e. proposals to put 100 "pinch points" on Bills Trails to slow mountain bikes down. This would make a formerly nice trail full of barricades just to slow down bikes, but why should hikers and equestrian have to deal with man-made pinch points just becuase bikers won't slow down? Again, not a compatable, or safe trail to make multi-use

Totally ridiculous to add pinch points on a trail when we have so many single track trails with natural obstacles. <g> Too bad there are so few single track trails for us to legally ride. They are a lot of fun to ride. I believe in sharing the trails, but I can see some people want to exclude "your user group". If I am not on a bicycle, I am no longer part of that group.

Reading these comments is both disturbing and amusing. Having experienced crazed MBikers while hiking, I understand how hikers and equestrians get annoyed at bikers. I have also seen trail damage left by MBbikes, trash such as flattened tires and illegal trails. I have also seen terrible damage left by horses and even boots on rain soaked trails, and wrappers form energy bars tossed on the side of the trail left by God knows who? It is amusing that people refer to the "wilderness" of Marin. If you want a wilderness, go to Antartica, for that is where you will find the only wilderness left on Earth. THe rest of the planet has been "multiuse" for decades. Of course we need rules, and we need enforcement and we need understanding. I see little of the later here. Let's all go the way of the Middle East because of our petty differences!